Gotham Get Down

Last night I was bagging and boarding my comics. I often put on a movie I’ve seen before just to have some background buzz, and I chose the Wonder Woman animated film. The offspring joined me, not to bag and board, but for the movie. Inevitably, she has questions. She is a curious spirit and I have henceforth dubbed her “The Questionator” (it is her super power). As she is watching the movie, she is curious why Diana isn’t sustaining any broken bones while fighting Ares. I explained Wonder Woman’s super powers, and how she’s pretty much impervious. Then she suggests that a fight between her and Batman would be a good one. I laughed. Clearly, she overrates Batman (just like everyone else); thus, I countered her versus suggestion with Black Canary. She thought about it and concurred. So there we have it, folks. Dinah versus Bruce. Set aside your boyhood bias and remember they both have been trained by Lady Shiva. They are both stellar hand-to-hand combatants. One is a genius and the other is a Meta. AND … just to keep it extra funky-fresh … Gail’s Canary circa Sensei & Student, Morrison’s Bat from, say, Batman & Son. Go.

32 thoughts on “Gotham Get Down

  1. It would be a good fight I so agree on that, but I think that it might be a draw.
    I so agree that EVERYONE overrates Batman’s fighting capabilities, yes he is skilled and yes he is smart but he is not he best fighter in the League. : )
    I think that you should have had a draw/tie option but a good question V and hats off to the “Questionator”! : )

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  2. Ooooooh. Good matchup!

    In the end, I’d have to say Batman. But it would be a LONG fight.
    In defense of the fanboys; Batman’s overall threat level isn’t determined just by his skills and smarts, but by the time and opportunity he has to prepare for any given event.
    If they both knew about the fight beforehand, it would definitely go to bats. But in a complete surprise match, I think it may very well be a tossup.

    Even Batman gets beaten now and again (See: Deathstroke).

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  3. Batman seems to be to the DC fanboys what Logan/Wolverine is to the Marvel guys. If Batman can beat Superman time and time again, logic dictates he should be able to fight both Canary and WW. If the writers decide Bats will win, he’s going to pull out all the stops (read “plan ahead”) and use his magic millions to purchase the perfect item to beat them both.

    If you want my vote, I say Canary for the comic. If it’s Arkham City Batman, then he’ll kick her ass with an X ∆ □ combo, then hang her from a lamppost to dry.

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  4. Batman overrated? Um, yeah – no.

    To those who have obviously taken leave of their senses, let me give you a quick reminder – Batman 101: fact; Batman is the most skilled combatant IN THE FRIGGIN’ WORLD!
    Try to follow me on this – that means no one excels at any form of combat – hand-to-hand or weaponry better than…wait for it……….Batman! Combine these formidable skills with the knowledge of weaknesses he’s procured from studying his fellow heroes and that gives him a decided advantage. The only way someone can beat him is if Batman makes a mistake – which is rare, but can happen should he become fatigued. He’s taken down superpowered beings (see Superman) and countless Meta’s. And he BEAT Lady Shiva. Don’t hate just because he’s the best.

    Jeez, call me when there’s a REAL debate.

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  5. Hmmm, not sure I completely agree with Jeff here, but he brings up some good points. I have to say that it is Batman hands down. It has been established time and time again that he is a higher class of combatant than most anyone in the DCU (saying anything is established in the DCU at this point.) But that doesn’t mean there aren’t better combatants out there. The key is, Dinah, as much as I love her as a character, has never spent an entire weekend devising at least 12 strategies for disabling Batman. I would be willing to bet all of Luthor’s millions that Batman has specifically done that in regards to her (and to Superman, and to Aquaman, and to Forbush-Man, and to President Obama, and to Santa Claus in case he is ever proven to actually exist, and to the Ghost of Nixon possessing the body of Alfred, etc, etc…) He is a paranoid bastard.

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    • You do realize that you make Batman sound completely mentally ill?
      I LOVE BM to bits but that just makes him sound a tad pathetic and living in fear to me which something that I never thought of the character as before.

      This is an aside, but why is it some Fan Boys get all up in arms when one dares to suggest that Batman or Wolverine or any male character when poised against a female combatant that the female could or would win? It is like an anathema to them. I find that rather janky and lame to be honest.
      Does anyone have any thoughts ont he matter?

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        • Personally I like my men to have as little mental illness as possible. I do not mind driven or hardworking but the way Peter described BM he needs a padded room, and that to me is neither charming, romantic nor heroic.

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  6. That is one patronizing response Jeff M.
    I love comic books, and the genre but when people start spouting off with their “Comic Book Guy” attitude and responses I just cringe from the know it all mega-nerdiness of it.
    So for you Batman is the best. HUZZAH, say so, but for the love of Jimmy Choos please do not use phrases like: “Try to follow me on this”. For it is insulting and insipid and far from insightful and clever.

    V and E and other posters follow the genre with a thoughtful and loving passion and this is their blog ( I think they know their stuff) so please try not to be so patronizing.

    In closing I take this all back and duly apologize if you were being light heartedly sarcastic in your response.

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  7. I’d be rooting for Canary, that’s for sure. Would Batman be able to use his gadgets? Dinah’s powers would be troubling for him, but if he could use his many toys I suspect she’d have a hard time winning it. Sure would be a fun match, though!

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  8. Wow! I love the attempt at villifying me for standing up to V’s dismissal of Batman in calling him “overrated” Very amusing. Thank you for the chuckle.

    Glad you appreciate the “man-‘splainin'”, V. I know your comment was of utmost sincerity.

    By the way, “Hepburn”, for the record, THAT was the root behind my statement – NOT because a female was challenged to Batman. When basing an established fact – which in this case is that Batman is the most skilled combatant in the world – the logical conclusion is that going into any battle, he’s the HEAVY favorite for victory. You could take it a step further and say that he wouldn’t be defeated, but that’d make things dull and uninteresting to readers.

    I have just as much loving passion for my heroes as anyone and that’s why I chose to step up in defense of Bats. As we all know, tone is difficult to discern when reading text, so let me establish that, yes, there was definitely some tongue-in-cheek, but there was also some seriousness. My response reflected a variety of emotions. I don’t apologize for that. I felt calling Batman “overrated” was rather condescending, and likely that’s why my reply was punctuated in kind. Try to lighten up, Hep. You seem to take yourself more seriously than I.

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    • I take no sides. I will simply confirm or deny the tone of my text.

      I was indeed condescending the Bat when I called him overrated, but … it was sincere. I do actually feel that way. I have a love/hate relationship with Bruce Wayne. It just depends on what day of the week it is.

      Jeff knows (I think he does), I truly did feel all warm and fuzzy from his comment. I love a good fanboy/girl response chock full of continuity and character facts. It is … why I do versus polls. I mean I got some continuity chops, but as convoluted as the DCU is, I sure as hell wouldn’t presume to be able to know all.

      Hepburn, I can appreciate your perspective as well.

      Tongue-and-cheek is allowed, but tone of text is a tricky thing. Keeping that in mind, I do appreciate the discussion and thought provocation. If I am being completely honest with the both of you, I write to incite.

      ;-) Cheers!

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      • Thanks V for you words.
        I too have a love/hate thing with Batman. I adore the character when he is written well but in some cases some writers make him so over the top invincible in all areas that when the same things is done to Superman, Wonder Woman or any other super/hero it is called ridiculous.
        I have no doubt about your tone V as I have been scoping your blog for a bit and I know that you enjoy a good debate as do I and so do a lot of the other posters.
        I do not write to incite, but I do write to respond, to defend and clarify.
        Oh and as a favour could you please when addressing me use my screen name and not my given name? Thanks and Pax! : )

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  9. Thanks for putting my name in quotes Jeff M. I mean really.
    There was and is no attempt to vilify you, that seems to be your own take. No one was questioning your love of comics and the genre, I did not say as much, but you seem to in your own mind have to think that I said so.
    I just asked you to be considerate and mindful of E and V’s and everyone else’s love and knowledge of the genre, because by your own words you were not even taking it into account.
    Others here also purported to support Batman, but you seem to have the need to be a condescending know it all in your tone.
    Also I did not say that because it was a female combatant that that was the root behind your comment ( if you will notice it was not addressed to you but it was an aside to another comment that I made), but I did say that your comment was done in a “Comic Book Guy” know it all attitude and that is so not clever, droll or insightful, but rather petty and snubbing to everyone else’s opinion.

    Others posted that they would think Batman would win but not in a way that deem to one up everyone else.
    By all means stand up for Batman, but by standing up for him please do not stand on others to make yourself seem clever.
    Jeff M since you offered me the advice to not take myself so seriously, I will offer you some in return. Please do not attempt to dabble in sarcasm and or humour for it is just not your gift, it falls flat and makes you seem like a big prat, which you just might not be in real life.

    And in closing please do not address me as Hep, only people that respect me may call me that.

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  10. A pure fight — fist to fist & foot to foot — I’m giving this to Canary.

    As much as I ♥ Bruce — he just doesn’t “fight” as often as Dinah. She’s a well oiled fighting machine in my mind.

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  11. I’m voting Bats.

    Now this has nothing to do with being a man! Hell, I love watching my women kick ass and I still think that with all the godly wisdom and amazonian combat-training WW should be able to STOMP Supes… but that’s just me.

    Now if its hand-to-hand, in a completely empty arena, wide-open space… Canary would win even without her meta. Batman is NOT the best fighter in the DC.

    The thing about Batman though is that he knows how to use his surroundings, he knows how to plan ahead, and he knows his allies probably better than he knows himself. There is no doubt he knows the Canary’s range of abilities, fighting style, and speed by heart and I don’t think we can say the same about her. He would most likely find a way to lure her into an environment that would render her sonics useless(a unstable building?) and stick to the shadows. Knowing she’s a better fighter, I highly doubt Bruce would even let her get close.

    Give him his gadgets as well and its not even a fight. All it takes is a tranq and that’s not even being clever.

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  12. @ “Jonathan B.” – Actually, Batman IS the best fighter/combatant in the ENTIRE DCU. That’s an established DC fact – not something which can be disputed, no matter how passionately opposed anyone may feel. So, based upon your supposition, you’re incorrect – and “Bianca”, Batman “fights” just as much as does Canary. Not sure from where you’re basing that hypothesis.

    “V.”, I admire and respect the hell outta you – though I confess that your love/hate thing with Bats (and it’s subsequent foundation) makes me shake my head in exasperation. I agree that the DCU in it’s ever-evolving format can cause consternation (and I certainly don’t profess to know EVERYTHING about it – I’m more Batman-specific)…and you’re a bit of a trouble-maker (inciting) ;)

    Ah, Hep…Hepperton…Hepster…Hepmeister…

    I get it – you live as a revisionist historian. Do you also make a beeping noise when you back-up like that?

    Like reading, comprehension is a skill – one you obviously lack, seemingly for sake of convenience or perhaps simply an inherent trait. Since you wish to portray yourself so ignorantly, I’ll break this down so that even YOU can understand. And so there’s no mistaking my intention, let me clarify that this will be ripe with condescension, as I return fire in kind (as was previously mentioned).

    You absolutely tried to vilify me. Here’s how – In citing my initial reply, you chose words such as “patronizing”, “insulting” and “insipid” (making good use of your obvious 2 previous “dictionary word of the day” and a synonym for one of them). You took aim at my character with these words. Here’s the definition: Vilify: “to revile with abusive or defamatory language; malign”. Are you clear on this, now – or do I need to have Cookie Monster come and break it down for you, Old-School-style?

    In making mention of my love and passion for these characters, that was in deference to you making an allowance for one person, but not offering me the same considerations, because my reply wasn’t carefully constructed to suit your pathetic need. Your gripe seems to be that I chose to be blunt as opposed to being clever in my response. Really? So, now I’m supposed to entertain you? Read that again. If after read-and-repeat you still haven’t grasped how ridiculous that is, then keep re-reading until it registers. I’ll understand if it takes awhile…and you need assistance. News flash: I’m not here for your entertainment purposes and if I DID give a sh*t, I certainly don’t entertain for free. Get a life. Talk about insipid.

    (“V”, I apologize for having to make reference to you during what now really is just a grudge between Heppitty-do-da and myself)
    “V” doesn’t need you to toe the line for her. Of that I’m confident. By her own admission, she was being condescending – and I harbor no grudge towards her. She spoke her mind, I spoke mine. Again, for you, the comprehension-impaired – I responded to her exactly as she had initially impressed. In her reply, she indicated that she was ok with my riposte and she also deciphered that my take was a mixture of haughty seriousness, but with tongue planted firmly in cheek, so find another cause to champion. Also, at no point did I proclaim myself to be a “know-it-all”. I reported a few factual things which pertained to Batman and set that for debate if someone could bring forth something to challenge within those parameters. A true debate occurs when you posture two theories of credible probability towards one-another. However, in doing so, you need first understand the fundamentals and build upon those principles. Einstein’s Theory of Relativity isn’t blindly challenged. The great minds that offer conflicting theories all base the same fundamentals. Is any of this seeping in? I’ve got Cookie Monster on speed-dial. Just say the word. No, seriously.

    I’m aware that your comment about it being a “female challenger” wasn’t directed at me. I chose to respond to it, nontheless. Feel better about yourself, now?

    Unlike you, I don’t backpedal from my statements. I explained them, but I certainly didn’t make excuses, as seems to be your M.O. That makes you a coward, on top of everything else. And please, don’t try and minimize my grasp of sarcasm or humor, as I can deploy either quite deftly…however, when dealing with the low-brow such as yourself, being direct seems the better option. Any time you wish to engage in a battle-of-wits, make sure you first figure out how to arm yourself. Certainly there’s no challenge to obliterating the defenseless.

    In closing, Van Heppling, use your own material instead of borrowing mine. Such unoriginality suggests intellectual inadequacy, lack-of-effort/laziness and is deeply pathetic. Switch to decaf and seek therapy, stat (try not to steal that, either).

    Listen, people – my intention is not to insult (although I may now reserve a caveat for “Hepster”), but rather to defend the factual and entertain banter should there be serious consideration for debate which is supported factually – of which one has yet to be presented.

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    • Actually, Bats is not the ultimate fighter in the DCU; that honor arguably goes to Karate Kid. And even if you wish to disqualify due to his current death, there are a handful of characters that are still better fighters than Batman, such as Lady Shiva (who has never been defeated by the Dark Knight, and the one supposed time was only through the intercession of Robin). It is of note that Black Canary has been forced to fight Lady Shiva has done really well, as well as sharing a sensei or two. In all honesty, I’d vote for Batman, but I think that the contest would be close, with the Canary Cry keeping his weaponry at bay, but his more strategic thinking and experience giving him the edge (not discounting the Canary’s abilities in this area, just observing that she tends to improvise where the Detective tends to plan things out). It is of note that Barbara Gordon has stated that, in terms of solely martial arts prowess, Dinah could even best the Batman. Nonetheless, I think that Batman, having debated how to take her on in an abstract sense, would have the slightest edge over the more on-the-fly Canary, who would essentially by flying blind into a fight with Batman.

      However,, I do agree with your assertion that there has yet to be a factual debate, especially in your rather laboriously long posts. Laborious, that is, to read through. I’d really like to see some facts to back up your case rather than base attempts to browbeat others into submission through ridiculously long posts. Sure, Bats has a long and colorful career, but so does Black Canary, having been around since 1947. She has also been one of DC’s strongest female characters, having the distinction of not having a male forebear and arguably the most appearances in non-comics media. I think that a strong argument could be made that she would stand a good chance against the Dark Knight.

      Nonetheless, I don’t find it enjoyable reading through an opinionated post without the slightest fact to back it up about how some other user is wrong in his or her opinions solely because some blowhard disagrees, and not because that blowhard has any kind of factoid or canon detail to back themselves up. All of that poor wasted verbiage, and naught to show for it….

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  13. Jeff M. really… what is your dealio?
    Please stop.
    I have asked you nicely but still you persist to insult me.
    I have called you no names and yet you feel the puerile need to make fun of my pen name and me and my intelligence, and my statements.
    You seem to take everything said in this thread be it by me or anyone else as some affront directed to you, well my next lines are to you.
    Stop being a prat and a jagweed. (now I am calling you names but you have truly merited it)
    And in closing to make you sleep better: Batman wins it all.

    pax and please stay away from me on this forum.

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